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What do you dislike the most about the SNES from a hardware & software perspective
March 12, 2013
9:32 pm
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RushDawg

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Hardware

I really wish the SNES had a faster processor.  This became less of an issue late in the system’s life, but many of the SNES’ early games really suffered from slowdown (especially shmups!).  It’s really the one area where the Genesis hardware has the SNES beat and it actually does make a difference when it comes to how certain games play.  When I play a game like Super R Type (or to a lesser extent Gradius III), I can’t help but wonder what could have been.

 

Software

For a system with such a killer RPG library, it’s really lacking in the strategy RPG department.  Sure it’s got Ogre Battle and Gemfire, but why did we never get western ports of Fire Emblem or Tactics Ogre?

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 12, 2013
10:07 pm
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John Legendoffzelda

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That strategy RPG query could probably have been solved by keeping the CD peripheral, I would think. If Nintendo did that, maybe they could have kept Square and something like “Final Fantasy Tactics” would be for the Super Nintendo. Or would it be for the Nintendo 64?

 

Speaking of which, the “Fire Emblem” series goes back to 1990. Was there a market for strategy RPGs in North America or Europe back then? If there was, maybe Nintendo would have reason to build an audience early, and possibly hold them into the Super Nintendo days, but if not…

March 12, 2013
11:27 pm
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RushDawg

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The Genesis got two Shining Force games (basically Fire Emblem without permadeath and more centaurs) plus Langrisser I (released as War Song).

 

I doubt any of those games were huge successes, but the Shining Force games likely did ok (despite having zero advertising that I can recall).

 

I would imagine if the Fire Emblem games had a respectable marketing campaign behind them (think Uniracers-level), they would have at least been profitable in North America and Europe.

 

The Super Famicom actually did have a “Final Fantasy Tactics” like game.  Tactics Ogre was, as far as I know, the first example of the “Tactics” style of SRPG.  In fact, FFT was made by much of the same team that did Tactics Ogre.  Not to take anything away from FFT (which was an awesome game that holds up well) but the Super Famicom did it first!

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 13, 2013
12:32 am
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Mongunzoo
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For the question of the CD SNES peripheral, I doubt it would have made a difference to Square. The Sega CD being a peripheral meant that it would have only ended up in a fraction of SNES households (peripherals that are released after the console launches rarely see above 20 percent). Square would have likely gone with the Playstation for the sheer fact of 100 percent of PS users would have the Cd drive, plus the guarantee of a growing userbase.

 

To answer the question at hand, I second that processor speed.  It was the only real weakness of the SNES library.

 

On software……The only thing I see hurting is the beat em up genre.  When it comes to trop-tier beat em ups, I can only really name four.

King of Dragons

Final Fight 3

TMNT 4:TIT

Ninja Warriors

 

I’m not saying that the others aren’t good, but those four are the only ones I see that are MUST PLAY.  The Genesis is a whole different story.

 

As far as StratRPGs go, I would agree if it were the 90s.  But it aint the 90’s anymore.  We now have Reproductions to let us dive deeper into that Endless Ocean of Quality…..

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
1:10 am
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RushDawg

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I’d argue that Batman Returns belongs on a list of “must play” SNES beat ’em ups.

 

Do you consider the Genesis to be the better beat ’em up system?  I’ve always thought of the SNES and Genesis as around equal in that genre.

 

I’d consider the following as “must play” on the Genesis:

  • Streets of Rage 2 (arguably the best console beat ’em up of the 16-bit era)
  • Comix Zone
  • Splatterhouse 2 / 3
  • TMNT: Hyperstone Heist (which falls just short of TMNT: TiT)

So in my eyes, it’s pretty much on par with the SNES.

 

Golden Axe 1 has a ton of nostalgia for me, so I’m tempted to put it on the list, though I wouldn’t consider it to be a must play for someone unfamiliar with it.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 13, 2013
2:14 am
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Mongunzoo
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Yes, I consider the Genesis to be a better beat em up system by a small margin.

 

Must plays on the Genesis to me include:

Golden Axe (Definitely makes the cut.  SO MUCH FUN!)

Streets of Rage 2 (No arguably about it! Its the best)

Comix Zone (such a grand idea)

The Punisher (Overlooked and a TON of fun)

Splatterhouse 3 (exploration elements, multiple endings and gruesome violence)

Hyperstone Heist (has it’s own charm, plus you get to fight Master Tatsu!!!!

 

As for Batman Returns I forgot about that one!  Its great and affordable for SNES neophytes.

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
11:27 am
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John Legendoffzelda

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Okay, my comments were kind of off-topic. I didn’t think I could contribute to what was at hand. I don’t have any problem with the Super Nintendo’s processor, even with early shoot-em-ups. (I’m myopic about 16-bit shoot-em-ups anyway. Beat-em-ups are probably a different story.) I only figure the Genesis was faster because it didn’t have to show as much stuff on-screen. Wasn’t it 64 colors out of 512, while the Super Nintendo could show 128 colors out of 32,000-plus? 

I second that notion on “Batman Returns”. I like it more than “Turtles in Time”, even. I wanted to mention it before, but I figured  it wasn’t that important of a game, what with ScrewAttack calling it a copy of “Final Fight” and that sort of thing. 

March 13, 2013
11:37 am
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Mongunzoo
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Don’t worry about off-topic! Conversations tend to flow with a natural current, with participants going with the flow. you won’t be shouted down here with cries of “off-topic”. I’ll let IGN and YouTube users enjoy that.

 

I never really thought of it like that LoL on the processor speed!  I think that might be worthy of an interview question if I can ever get anyone in this industry to talk to me. (Nintendo REFUSES. Not declines, REFUSES.)

 

Thinking about it one thing Nintendo REALLY lacks is BC support which the master system had with an add-on. One of the chief complaints parents (and spouses) had is that they couldn’t use their COLLECTION on the new system, instead having to have aANOTHWER system in the house to take up space.  

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
11:52 am
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John Legendoffzelda

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Mongunzoo said
  I think that might be worthy of an interview question if I can ever get anyone in this industry to talk to me. (Nintendo REFUSES. Not declines, REFUSES.)

 

Refuses? What did you do to them

March 13, 2013
12:08 pm
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Mongunzoo
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Read some of my earlier threads LoL!  Here’s an example:

“The reason why I point out that I am playing these old games is not to point out the quality of these games or to raise some Retro Flag on this website. The point is to say: “You have failed me.” For example, how much longer are we going to have to replay Super Metroid until a modern game comes out that satisfies and does more? How much longer are we going to have to keep replaying Super Mario Brothers 3?  Or Zelda 1 and 2 or 3?

Are you still playing Chrono Trigger?  Or Super Metroid?  Or Super Mario Brothers 3 or Super Mario World?  Are you still playing  playing a game older than ten years?

If so, you are not the problem. The game makers are the problem. They have not bothered to satisfy an existing appetite. It may be due to the existing appetite is too small (i.e. a niche game). But most of the time, such as the most popular video game ever made with Super Mario Brothers, it is because the game makers do not wish to satisfy existing appetites. It hurts their creativity. It makes them do things they do not want to do.

Nintendo game developers like to compare themselves to chefs. But chefs make the same dishes, day in and day out, all the time. When someone orders pizza, they want pizza, not a “surprise” like a watermelon-salmon-peanut-butter-tangerine pizza.”

 

Yeah, lots of that LoL!

 

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
12:31 pm
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John Legendoffzelda

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I see. So, Nintendo went out of their way to read your forum posts, and they won’t speak to you because of it.

Not to offend you, but where did you say this? The SNES Hub, or somewhere else? Does this happen with other people?

March 13, 2013
12:45 pm
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Mongunzoo
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Game companies consistently monitor fan efforts in order to understand what fans are asking for and are even known to directly engage potential customers on forums like these in the form of viral marketing.

 

Not that this is a large effort, but it is becoming large for a SNES fansite.  It is very likely that someone from Nintendo has been here thus may have seen some of my work.

 

In attempting to write my 1991 article and my “what could have been” article I repeatedly requested an interview with someone at Nintendo that was present during the 16-bit era, and was told that they “Refuse” to speak to me for the features.

 

I am not a by nature a tinfoil hat, and I have had no problem setting up future interviews with other game developers. (you’ll see these in time I hope).  And though I have been turned down it is usually with diplomatic language such as “not at this time” and “we decline to comment”.

 

So Nintendo’s language means that either they have read some of my posts in passing and were offended, or that they truly have zero regard to how customers perceive them.

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
1:06 pm
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RushDawg

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Mong, have you tried reaching out to “Gamemaster” Howard Philips?  He left Nintendo in 1991 but has been pretty candid in interviews since then.  Perhaps he could give some insights into the lead-up to the SNES launch.

 

John, the Genesis’ faster processor speed actually allowed it do MORE, not less then the SNES.  True, it had fewer on screen colours, but Genesis games frequently had more sprites on the screen and had more layers of parallax scrolling.  This is why the Genesis is generally considered superior for shmups; it put more stuff on the screen while still running smooth.  

 

And back to Hyperstone Heist!  I think the game looks and sounds just as good as Turtles in Time.  One of my favourite features is that you can change the colour of the turtles from “anime” to “comic”.  In “comic” mode, the turtles are each slightly different shades of green!  It might even play a little better thanks to the dedicated run button.

 

To me, what makes Turtles in Time the better game is that it is a much more cohesive package.  The levels flow together very well.  Hyperstone Heist’s levels feel very disjointed.  Why is level 2 a “ghost” ship?  The “fight all the bosses again” level 4 also feels kind of lazy.  

 

One last nitpick about HH!  In Turtles in Time, you are attacked by pizza monsters while surfing over the sewers.  The Pizza Monsters swim under the water and surface to attack you.  In HH, the Turtles walk over the same water that the Pizza Monsters are swimming under!  This makes no sense!

Overall, I’d call Turtles in Time a 10 and Hyperstone Heist a 9.  Not quite as good as the game it is based off of, but still an absolute blast to play.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 13, 2013
1:18 pm
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Mongunzoo
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I will do that.  An excellent suggestion.

 

Isn’t it amazing how important flow and structure is to Videogames?  Take Mario.  The Mushroom Kingdom used to operate on the same principal.  You would Beat a castle and the next level the captured castle is behind you.  In Mario 3 you climb a tower and end up in the sky. Dinosaur Island shows you the path you are taking before your eyes. 

 

When the adventure feels coherent it enhances the experience.

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
1:23 pm
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RushDawg

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So true!

 

One of the best examples of flow and cohesion in platform games is Sonic 3 & Knuckles.  After you beat an act, the next act picks up exactly where you left off.  It makes the world the game takes place in feel more alive which makes the adventure seem more grand.

 

Outside of the game, there is a lot less cohesion, as the adventure was literally sold in two parts!

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 13, 2013
1:33 pm
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Mongunzoo
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sonic the hedgehog also has this in spades, which is why it was a phenomenon that almost rivaled Mario!

I musat coinfess I have been pondering the inspiration of Sonic.  Mario was clearly inspired by Literary Nonsense works such as Gullivers travels, Alice in Wonderland, and the Wizard of Oz.

 

What do you think was the inspiration behind sonic?

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
1:51 pm
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RushDawg

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The creation behind Sonic is pretty well documented.  Sega held a contest to come up with a mascot to rival Mario and Sonic was the winner.  The runner-up ended up becoming Dr. Robotnik.

 

Sonic’s world seems to be pretty heavily influenced by science fiction and to a lesser extent Japanese anime.  Two big influences are Star Wars and Dragon Ball.  

 

The Star Wars influence comes from the fact that Sonic represents a rebel, fighting against an evil empire of robots.  Heck, Dr. Robotnik even has a Death Egg in Sonic 2 and 3!

 

The Dragon Ball influences come from the chaos emerald collecting and Sonic’s “Super” form heavily resembling a Super Saiyan.

 

Another influence is environmentalism, with Sonic representing nature and Robotnik representing man-made creations.  The games always start out in a pristine natural environment and end in a factory / space-station sort of setting.

 

Overall, I’d say sci-fi is the strongest influence, as Sonic regularly finds himself in futuristic, artificial worlds.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

March 13, 2013
1:59 pm
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Mongunzoo
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Fascinating look at a series I have not yet been able to put under the microscope. Thank You!

 

Maybe once I finish off the SNES library!

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

March 13, 2013
2:08 pm
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John Legendoffzelda

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RushDawg said

John, the Genesis’ faster processor speed actually allowed it do MORE, not less then the SNES.  True, it had fewer on screen colours, but Genesis games frequently had more sprites on the screen and had more layers of parallax scrolling.  This is why the Genesis is generally considered superior for shmups; it put more stuff on the screen while still running smooth.  

I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

March 13, 2013
11:08 pm
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RushDawg

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The Genesis has a ton to offer.  These topics get me all nostalgic for the 16-bit era, where competing systems offered a truly different experience.

 

I’m really looking forward to your 1991 article by the way!  Have you been to the Game Pilgrimage website before?  

 

It’s got some great info on the 16-bit wars, including information on how the SNES was covered by EGM / GamePro leading up to and into the SNES’ launch. 

 

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

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