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4:01 am
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March 14, 2012
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During the 5th and 6th Generations I remember the ‘experts’ saying that the side scroller was ‘obsolete’ because 3d has eliminated anything for 2d. If you want 2d platformers, they said, then you must play a handheld. The remark is more of an insult. Anything 2d is instantly stigmatized as ‘handheld’ and is sent to the ‘handheld ghetto’. Why, it is not worthy of a proper home console game.
Instead of voicing our displeasure, many of us assumed that perhaps our time had passed. Perhaps the younger people only like the newly frazzled 3d games. Perhaps we were old fogies remembering games of our younger days.
But then came NSMB DS to phenomenal success. How to explain that? “It sold well because it was on a handheld!”
When Mario 5 was released, it was greeted with a strange sense of hostility by self-appointed ‘experts’. It was condemned as a ‘casual game’ that ripped off LittleBigPlanet (Hahahahahahahaha!!!!) Yet, it sold and sold.
But if our self-appointed ‘experts’ were having a stroke over Mario 5 (oh no! a 2d game selling extremely well!), then what is their reaction to Mario Collection selling out very fast?
The reason why I keep harping on 2d Mario isn’t entirely about 2d Mario. It is fantastic evidence of a discovery about the video game market:
That there is no difference between gamers today and twenty five years ago. Just as NES kids grew up with a NES and Super Mario Brothers, the same phenomenon is occurring with Wii kids growing up with Mario 5 and NSMB DS. I would say much of the DS and Wii phenomenon is replicating what we saw with the early Arcade, Atari, and NES days.
Why is this important? It is concrete evidence that video game phenomenons can be recreated again and again. It contradicts Nintendo’s current “surprise” dogma that every future title must be different (e.g. if you liked games like Metroid or Super Metroid, too bad for you. It is time for ‘surprise’ which means bizarre stuff like Mommy Metroid).
I am confident in the future that the best selling blockbuster consoles will share many similarities with the Atari, NES, and Wii revolutions. I am also confident that a future Super Mario Brothers game will sell well (provided it is of quality).
And twenty five years from now, copies of Super Mario Brothers 50th Anniversary, that include ‘classics’ such as Super Mario Brothers 5, will be sold out.
What do you guys think? Am I crazy or is there some connection here?
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
10:59 am
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May 12, 2012
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However, “2D” sidescrolling games are a niché market today, you cant ignore that. That said i got a used mario all-stars for the snes with manual and box in good condition a few months back off ebay. I have never played that compilation before, and i have not played the actual games on it in at least 15 years. As far as platformers go, ive played LBP, because i got it for free in the PSN hack thingy, otherwise i dont see myself buying a modern “2d” platformer as id rather stick to the games made when this was the main genre. Those games are just better than their contemporary counterparts, in my opinion. 2d games need to be true 2d, and not 3d models in a 2d perspective for it to work for me. Thus, im not really interested in “new” super mario bros either.
I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means i can come across as rigid and overly argumentative. Please try and look past this and contact me if you have a problem with what/how i type. I type and read very literally and use no undertones. Thank you for trying to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....r_syndrome
5:53 pm
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February 11, 2012
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I would of loved to see a breakdown of the age demographics of each person the Super Mario All-Stars Wii went to…
As for 2D games, I don’t think they’ll ever go completely away. As long as there are people still around who enjoy traditional 2D side-scrollers, developers will continue to make them.
Thank goodness the Wii All-Stars and New Super Mario Bros. sold well. Now kids of this generation can feel the magic that a 2D side-scroller can bring, and they’ll pass the tradition on to their kids, and on and on it will go.
6:22 pm
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March 14, 2012
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Do not confuse the unwillingness of developers to make it with people not wanting to play it. These numbers prove that people DO want these kind of games, they always have. Its just that developers no longer wish to make them because to quote Miyamoto himself, “They are not fun for developers to make.”
One of the reasons why I left gaming for almost 2 decades has a lot to do with this selfishness that I once believed was just “I’ve grown out of gaming.” The Wii proved that gaming left me, not vice-versa.
Lets take this study a bit further…
Heres the numbers as of yet for NSMB Wii, which is STILL SELLING!! Analysts say it will likely hit 30 million.
Heres the numbers for the afore-mentioned Super Mario All-stars, which is the laziest effort Nintendo has ever put out. It is still selling since Nintendo just made another 1.5 million units to ship! I look forward to laughing when this 18-year-old “collection” also outsells the Galaxy Games!
There is a hunger for this type of gameplay. Before NSMB Wii we had This little “gem”
Not bad, Not Bad….Perfectly in line with “off-brand”.
Here is Donkey Kong Country Returns. Notice how these sales are almost exactly where the series left off when it left 2D for the new “OMG3D”.
Now let me show my definition of “Niche”.
Here is Super Mario 64. Remember what NSMB Wii Did by comparison!
Here is MArio Sunshine: Note this is a pathetic performance for Mario, even by 3D standards!
Here is Galaxy, remember the Rave Reviews for this one! Surely it is maintream in sales:
hmmmm….evidently not…
Super MArio Galaxy 2 should do better! Nintendo even released a free tutorial video with it for all those “Stupid Casuals” who do not get OMG3D!
NOPE!
Note that you cannot blame marketing in those circumstances. The “OMG3D” games all had first-rate budgets for advertising. Only NSMB Wii and LittleBigPlanet had any semeblance of a marketing budget. Gamers came out in droves to say, “this is what we want”.
It is an ABSOLUTE FALSEHOOD that these games are Niche. Yet they were treated as such by this industry for almost 2 decades. Even now there is no comparison for the budgets and craft. Look at the galaxy games with their Orchestral soundtrack and creative levels like Giant world. NSMB gets the “bah, bah” soundtracks and ANITHER desert world.
Developers treat these games and the gamers who love them such as myself as Niche. We are out there waiting. By making us second-class gamers they have relegated THEMSELVES to Niche status. That is what I mean when I speak of gaming being niche. In the arcade era they made games that everyone wanted to play, and they grossed more money thanHollywood, Sports, and Music combined! Now gaming is a joke to outside entertainment industries. It is no surprise to me that the gaming consoles that were cultural phenomenons all understoood the mass-market. The NES, SNES, Genesis, and now the Wii.
With the WiiU it looks like Nintendo may follow the HD Twins into the HD Abyss. It is their bridge.
And it is a bridge I look forward to helping burning down if they betray me again…
(The Links are below)
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
6:23 pm
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March 14, 2012
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Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
6:23 pm
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Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
7:03 pm
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May 12, 2012
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If they arnt a niché these days, why arnt every other game released today a sidescrolling platformer then? Stop calling me a liar everytime you disagree with me. Im fine with you disagreeing, im am NOT fine with you saying all i claim are falsehoods. Stop doing it.
And btw, since when is niché something negative? It has nothing to do with “second class”. It just isnt mainstream, and thats FINE…
I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means i can come across as rigid and overly argumentative. Please try and look past this and contact me if you have a problem with what/how i type. I type and read very literally and use no undertones. Thank you for trying to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....r_syndrome
7:58 pm
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March 14, 2012
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I am sorry but it is a falsehood to say that something that sells 30 million copies is niche.
Those sales figures point to the opposite of what you just said. The average game sells around 1-3 million. THAT IS NICHE. I just heard that Max Payne 3 is called a MEGA HIT hahahahahah! This from the same industry that have nothing but disrespect and resentment for NSMB Wii and its “casual customers”.
Miyamoto is on record as saying that 2D platformers such as Mario are really hard to do correctly. Lots of math and engineering are needed to get the physics JUST right. With 3D they have much more freedom, which is why 3D platformers never feel quite as precise.
And again you cannot just assume that just because games are not being made that there is no audience for them. Look at the return of PC point-and click adventures, another genre that was ignored.
There is a reason why Systems win console wars, and Nintendos decline and re-ascendance is directly connected to their policies. It is clear what works and what does not work, and if they choose the latter than they get what they deserve.
And being Niche is perfectly okay. My point has always been to stop pretending that they are NOT NICHE. They have champagne tastes and a beer budget, these game developers… They want to make Hollywood movies but lack the customerbase to make it happen without a studio closure every week.
I just point out how laughable it is….
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
8:22 pm
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March 14, 2012
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ANd I am sorry if I come across as defensive on this one but understand that 2D Mario is MY hot button issue! Its the one I do not let go because it is the best example of a MEGAHIT that a company refuses to make out of selfishness.
The best way I can put it to you is to think of your favorite series or game. Now imagine that it sells TENS OF MILLIONS OF GAMES AND IS BELOVED BY GAMERS EVERYWHERE! Now imagine that the developer gets a bug up his ass because he wants to explore his creativity and has new 3D toys to work with, so he stops making the best-selling series of all time!!
Instead he offers up a 3D version of the character that plays like a whole new game! Its fun but it is not what you want, thus it sellls a WHOLE THIRD less!! Despite this he plugs on and on and blames everything but the product!! ITS THE MARKETING SO LETS SPEND MORE ON ADVERTISING!! Doesnt work! ITS THE GAMERS THEY DONT UNDERSTAND! LETS PUT OUT A TUTORIAL TO TEACH THEM TO PLAY!! Doesnt work!
I waited 18 years for the game I wanted! Why Should THE BEST SELLING SERIES IN HISTORY be denied because of ANY REASON!?! That is the opposite of Niche! I do not see Skyrim Fruitsnacks in my chain of atores but we DO carry NSMB Fruitsnacks!! That is not niche.
Just because your restraunt only serves steak does not mean that there is not an appetite for Pasta dishes.
And just because the Game industry only serves up Various 3D Action or Puzzle experiences of one form or another DOES NOT mean that there is no appetites for platformers.
Pasta Sells and so does Super MArio Brothers….The Industry should try their own versions of it…Look at Castlevania, Mega Man, DuckTales, Donkey Kong Country, sonic and ANY other 2D platformers that were not as big as Mario yet sold VERY WELL in the genre that Mario Trailblazed. There is money to be made and more importantly there are PEOPLE TO BE ADDED TO THE RANKS OF GAMING!!!
If we get enough gamers created then maybe we could make some HD games without the studio having to declare bankruptcy afterwards…
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
8:41 pm
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March 14, 2012
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I am sorry, Gimm! I totally missed your point on Sprites as opposed to 3D models!!
That said, I agree with you! A great example is WarioLand ShakeIt!! A game using sprites as opposed to a 3D model!! I am amazed at just how good thast game looks!! Ill see if I can find pictures for you!
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
9:04 pm
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May 12, 2012
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Yes, it is a niché genre regardless if an individual title sell 30 million copies when compared to all other genres out there combined. Learn to look at things in perspective already. You seem to have no concept of what niché actually MEANS.. It has nothing to do with successfullness or not. It has to do with being mainstream or not. If the whole video game industry sell billions of copies of all games, 30 million IS niché in that perspective. And if you want to believe that just because this title sells 30 million copies no matter what you relate it to, it makes the whole genré non-niché, im done discussing with you all together. You are not consistant for a second in any of the discussions we’ve had so far, and i cant deal with that. call it a flaw. A modern platformer is still niché in todays perspective, regardless if it has mario in it or not. Hell most mario games released recently arnt even platform related to begin with.
As for untruthfullness, be as passionate as you like, but try to keep things rational. I never speak untruthfully about things like these intentionally, so yes i take it abit personal when people say stuff like that. Just go in to your closest gaming store and look at the offerings. Are most of them “2d” style platformers (or perhaps a variation of a FPS shooter, or another), in regards to current generation systems. If you say yes, you might wanna take a closer look.
I have also never made a comment regardless of an audience being there, or not, for platformers. Stop assuming that i have, as i have not even made a comment where this could be read as implied! Im talking about this subject from a more or less objective perspective. I happen to LIKE platformers, but i dont whine about them when i know why they arnt being made in the quantity or quality anymore, that they were during the 16-bit era. I realize that each generation has its main type of gameplay, and the current gen is simply not platforming. You have tons of platform games out there which are great games, and i dare to say that you have not played most of them, regardless of which system they were released for, they are simply too numerous. Instead if complaining that there arnt enough modern platformers, play and enjoy the high quality gems from the past!
” The best way I can put it to you is to think of your favorite series or game. Now imagine that it sells TENS OF MILLIONS OF GAMES AND IS BELOVED BY GAMERS EVERYWHERE! Now imagine that the developer gets a bug up his ass because he wants to explore his creativity and has new 3D toys to work with, so he stops making the best-selling series of all time!!”
That would be Baldurs Gate then, Bioware moved away from that format of RPG, and created other gems instead, most recently the ME series..
As i said before, niché does not equal less quality games… There are enough platformers still released to not warrant this rant in my opinion. And since this is your beloved capitalistic system, which you have defended repeatedly, i simply find it hypocritical that you complain to this degree, when you know well enough that profits are what drive companies. If not enough people are willing, or “projected” not to be willing, to pay for certain items, companies are much less likely to make them. So it all comes down to your love for business that you didnt get that NSMB you love so much, for 18 years… Or another capitalistic cliché, you can always make the game yourself! Oh the irony…
I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means i can come across as rigid and overly argumentative. Please try and look past this and contact me if you have a problem with what/how i type. I type and read very literally and use no undertones. Thank you for trying to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....r_syndrome
9:19 pm
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March 14, 2012
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….That was useful, since I do not think my skillset warrants such a product. Also I do not involve myself with what I percieve to be a collapsing industry. I sold off my Wii stock as soon as the 3DS was announced and that was my last link in this industry!
The fact that 30 million people shelled out for this means something. I do not understand why you insist in comparing a game that sells so much more to a combination of THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY GAMES OUT THERE! A bit unfair, and funnily enough you might find it to be closer than you think since most games do not even break a million! That does not mean that platformers are niche; they are not niche to the TENS OF MILLIONS WHO WANT THEM!! It just means that the industry does not make them as much for reasons that I have discusses and you ignored. The reason I gave COMES FROM SHIGERU MIYAMOTO HIMSELF IN MARIO MANIA!! You could also read exerpts available online from Game Over.
Whatever else this debate has said, just know that all I want is more 2D Mario and Zelda. If they cannot give me this then I will just enjoy my SNES like I did for 15+ years. They will have lost another customer that buys games after gettingt he system for these two.
Like you said, there are PLENTY of good games out there that are in the past, and Ill spend my money there. Its just a shame that more studios have to close because this industry is so STUPID…I am not a Lifestyle gamer. I do not need them. They are the ones who need me. Just rmember that in the end the customer is always right.
There. I said it………If you really think that the most popular series of all trime is niche I cannot help you. Name one other game that Sells like that aside from COD. Again we will just have to agree to disagree.
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
9:39 pm
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May 12, 2012
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I insist because even if a game is popular, it doesnt necessarily make it non niche. READ MY POSTS. They are quite uncomplicated unless you complicate them. You say you discuss, and i ignore. Well, must be a mirror thing then.
I dont care what Myamoto has to say. He is a businessman like any other, not some kind of gaming god, and i dont listen to their judgements or predicitions since its all BUSINESS to them. Dont you make your own opinions or judgements? Or do you only rely on capitalists and gaming media to make those up for you? Im a free thinking spirit, and i define things from logical reasoning, not popularity in a SINGLE TITLE, and thus defining the genre as a whole from that single title. That is not rational. If you compare FPS with Platforming, are you seriously trying to make me believe that platforming is not a niché compared to the FPS and action game dominance of today?
Im just simply not gonna discuss things with you anymore. You obviously dont read my posts for what they are, and im tired of it. Tired of repeating myself, trying to reformulate things to fit you. Disagreeing is one thing, accusations, or inability to read the words for what they are, and not find hidden implications or “between the lines”, is another thing alltogether. Im a very blunt and sincere guy. I write exactly what i mean, and i mean exactly what i write. Its pretty obvious you can not accept that, for whatever reason, which is fine. Im used to it. Ill just simply stop, since it takes too much energy.
btw, “the customer is always right” is one of the stupidest thing ever to come out of a business mans mouth, since its a blatant lie and never ment sincerely. Not to mention it demotes every person out there to a mere “customer” to be milked for profit. People are people, not customers.
Feel free to respond, ill read it, but im done discussing with you.
I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means i can come across as rigid and overly argumentative. Please try and look past this and contact me if you have a problem with what/how i type. I type and read very literally and use no undertones. Thank you for trying to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....r_syndrome
9:54 pm
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March 14, 2012
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Thats too bad, as I actually enjoy discussing things with you. I dont have ot agree to see the value of a new perspective. I would actually rather talk to someone who disagrees as it is more fun and enlightening. Who wants to be in constant yes-man comapny?
That said, know that I believe that most gamers I have talked to would agree with you over me. I have yet to meet anyone else that agrees with me 100 percent on these things.
As for your point on FPS, of course they have more marketshare! I think it must be easy to make a crappy shooter, much like it is easier to make a crappy platform game (you said you played LBP so I assume you understand my point here, er maybe I’m just spoiled by mario!) But just because no one is making platformers does not mean that there is not a market for them! They should try! Never know until they do!
From the gamers I have talked to there is tremendous demand that no one is fulfilling! I wish I had the skillset to make a good game because If I did you could BET i’d be there cashing in!!!
ANd from my knowledge I think that the game Industry are some of the worst decision-makers I have ever seen! Understand that these companies are typically run by the artists and developers. Look at nintendo as an example. Myiyamoto makes a great game designer, but after he attained an executive position it has been disastrous! You see the same thing at Microsoft Game Studios. The suits either were are still are the developers!
Artists rarely make good businessmen. ANd that is whay you saw Hollywood a couple years back begin to bring in outsiders to turn things around. The results are good. I think the problem with gaming is that there is a cult of creativity that no longer cares about what gamers want. Games are now about the developer not the gamer.
…..And if the customer is not right then take it from personal experience that they will go somewhere where thay ARE right. Only the customer has a right to be selfish. So if a developer thinks he knows best and the market disagrees, guess who wins?
The MArket. Study Metroid: Other M and see who wins when the business clashes with their customer….
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
9:55 pm
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Its not about agreeing or disagreeing. Its about you not understanding what im actually saying. And thus have not agreed or disagreed on the correct basis.
I have Asperger's Syndrome, which means i can come across as rigid and overly argumentative. Please try and look past this and contact me if you have a problem with what/how i type. I type and read very literally and use no undertones. Thank you for trying to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....r_syndrome
2:44 pm
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February 11, 2012
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Wow this thread is all over the place! Mark my words, I believe the General Gaming section of this forum will spark the most debate and fiery contentiousness…
I think both of you have your points. Mongunzoo, I have a feeling you want gaming to go back to the way they were in the mid 1980’s to mid 1990’s. I’m afraid they will never happen. Like all things, the gaming industry will go through ebbs and flows, and will redefine itself numerous times. I don’t think the traditional 2D side-scroller we all love will be the “main” thing ever again. That’s ok. We still have all of these wonder games from the 8-bit and 16-bit era to play with. Also, there are smaller developers who are creating wonderful 2D side-scrollers on the PSN & X-Box live as downloadable games. One of the reasons why this site exists is to preserve the memories of these type of games and share experiences on our favorite era. And no developer can take that away from us.
Mario is the man! He sells like hotcakes on whatever platform he is on, no matter what year it is. There’s no debate there. But unfortunately. 2D Mario is a niche’ market today. Make no mistake, if and when 2D Mario games come out, people will go out and buy them. But what games stick out first in most people’s minds today? Some form of 3D game.
As for developers, most of them don’t have a say in what type of game they are making. Their boss does. Yes, Miyamoto may have a certain perspective on gaming, but he is not the CEO of Nintendo. Miyamoto can take direction on where gaming development goes, but only because the CEO allows it. If the CEO told him to focus more on 2D gaming, Miyamoto would.
Grimm, the capitalist part was really reaching for this discussion. I think we may all have different definitions of what niche’ is though.
I love the debate that goes on here, I mean really, what other video game fan site can you get this depth of discussion? But let’s try not to irritate each other into madness. Remember, we will always have our differences, but keep in mind what brought us here together.
3:15 pm
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March 14, 2012
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No irritation here! I love grimm!!!
As I said I am trying to give a perspective on the outsider which I am. I left gaming for over a decade because I felt like i was not being served the kind of games I wanted to play. I am not alone.
Point blank, these new experiences should make the old ones OBSLETE. They do not, and so the industry has failed almost every genre in my eye except racing and Shooters which have progressed to this point. that is why the numbers of gamers have no where near kept up with population increase and market expanison.
so-called “Casuals often think like I do. HD will not win them over. They are not willing to pay for just graphics. They never have been. It is these folks we need to expand gaming in both terms of budgets and cultural impact.
There is a debate whether we even need to be “mainstream” I say yes but it is equally valid to say no we dont. Just dont pretend that gaming is someting it is not.
I daresay Grimm and I will have these discussions forever. And I welcome it!! Maybe on the roundtable, hmm Masamune? We need to utikize that a bit more.
Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.
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