Microsoft All But Confirms Always-Online Console, Tells customers to "Deal With It"|Page 2|General Gaming Discussion|Forum|SNES HUB

A A A
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Microsoft All But Confirms Always-Online Console, Tells customers to "Deal With It"
April 8, 2013
8:27 pm
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You have to look at the Valve model. The “steambox” will be multiple 3rd party hardware manufacturer’s, all of which will pay Valve for licensing in order to access Steam. It has been years since Valve has taken a risk. Valve’s model is to bypass the risk/ Take games like Left4Dead, portal, and Counter-Strike. If these games fail, Valve is out very little, and the modders are making more than they would have either way it goes. Everyone wins.

 

I’m not saying they wouldn’t be pleased as punch if It ate into Xbox sales (and it may; when I made my “who will win the next console wars analysis, I was not expecting Durango to shit itself and die on the sword of DRM.I was expecting a social media direction with Kinect functionality.) I am saying that it SHOULDN’T since customers can just hook their PC up to a screen, steam will not be exclusive to Steambox, and Valve will produce no exclusive content for it. It really has no reason to exist-outside of another outlet for Steam.  

 

We will see. Part of why i like talking to you is you make bold predictions like I do, making it much more fun for one party to say i told you so. Rest assured if I am wrong I will eat my crow with dignity lol!

 

P.S: This weekend plan to play.

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 8, 2013
8:57 pm
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I understand Valve’s business model.  I also understand that they’re not the boss of any hardware manufacturers.  They can’t force anyone to build a “SteamBox” for cheap.  So they’ve got to court manufacturers to build the product for them.  In order to do this, they’ll either have to give them a cut of Steam’s profits (unlikely) or develop a UI for the SteamBox that is a salable product.  Something that a hardware manufacturer can look at and say “people will want to buy my box for this”.   Don’t kid yourself, they are spending considerable resources to try and make this a success.

 

I also understand the hardware world.  To get a product made cheaply, you need economies of scale.  So you need to be banking on selling a LOT of units to make this worth your while.  If you’re the hardware manufacturer for SteamBox, you need to make a profit on the hardware as well (something Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo don’t have to do).  So again, Valve needs to convince manufacturers that this will be worth their while and the only way it will be is if they can sell millions.

 

Lastly, I hope you realize that using your logic, one could have argued that Google’s Android wouldn’t have been a success in 2007 or so, because Google wasn’t building the phones.  We all know how that turned out.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 8, 2013
10:09 pm
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That is why I am wondering why this product exists.

 

The only way I can wrap my head around it is if Valve decides that A)They will make a box themselves, and  B)Valve decides to get off their asses on the SOFTWARE side of their business and make some killer apps EXCLUSIVELY for Steambox. Since both would require a radical departure from the way valve has operated since 2002, I can’t see either happening.

 

A steam-specific console has no meaning because gamers can already access Steam FOR FREE. It is redundant.

And you are equating a Free OS that powers phones (which everyone needs) with a console that plays videogames(which only SOME people want). And one that arguably does a worse job than a PC yet also lacks the 1st party software that consoles are known for. An Android-powered cellphone is practically free through your network, while Steambox costs 1000 dollars for a product that is already free if you have a computer.

It’s question 2 of business 101 that I am asking: Who is the customer for this thing?!?

 

I’m not going to spend any more time on this. Microsoft’s announcement changes things, but only a little. It may cut into Microsoft (who has no 1st party exclusives since they are all on PC as well, and DRM),but it will have to be cheaper than Durango; at a grand, forgetaboutit!

 

To be lazy and paste a past argument:

 

“The game console business is not easy. How many billions did Microsoft lose entering the market? And Sony wouldn’t be in the market today if it weren’t for their success with PlayStation (which was forced by Nintendo terminating their agreement). Valve has never faced such a market before. Game consoles are nothing like cell phones or digital storefronts OR personal computers.

While gamers may get excited about a Valve Steambox, I point to the graveyard of game consoles.  These companies know this. 

                                       Will Steam only exist on this new hardware?

If the answer is no, which I suspect it will be, then why should I buy the device? I already have a computer. I can buy Steam games on it. Why should I buy another expensive device if the same general software is available on the computer I already own?

                                       Will Valve games only be able to be bought on the device?

Since the answer is likely to be no, then what reason does the consumer have to buy such a game console?  GAME CONSOLES are driven by software… mostly software that can only be bought for that hardware. Super Mario Brothers, HALO, Grand Theft Auto 3 (for a while), Sonic, all of these pushed momentum into the hardware sales. 

 

So the REAL question regarding Valve is whether or not  they are ready go exclusive on a piece of hardware.  Since that would be such a radical change for the company, I assume the answer remains no.  And so instead of another REAL contender what we will get is another avenue for Valve to accumulate wealth.  Nothing more.”

 

Or to put it another way:

Steambox is the next 3DO. Laugh at me if I am wrong. The joy of the internet is that everything sticks, both genius and idiocy.

 

But I won’t be….

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 8, 2013
10:16 pm
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If you have a gaming quality PC, SteamBox is not for you.

If you do most of your computing on a smart phone / tablet / underpowered laptop, SteamBox MIGHT be for you.  

 

You ask who the customer is.  This is obvious; people who want to play games but don’t own / can’t afford a gaming-quality PC.  There are millions of Xbox owners who fit this description right now.  

 

Valve wants to take these customers and make money off of them.   Because you know what?  They’re basically buying the same games for their Xbox that Valve sells on Steam.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 8, 2013
10:21 pm
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Also, where are you getting the $1,000 from?

 

Valve hasn’t announced pricing.  They have said there will be three models of SteamBox; good, better, best.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 8, 2013
10:56 pm
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The 1000 dollars is for the base model of the first Steambox the Piston. It will fail.

Good costs 1000 dollars

Better costs 1350 dollars

Best costs 1750 dollars

 

Valve worked closely with the manufacturer. There will not be one but several Steamboxes.

…………………………………………………………….

“If you have a gaming quality PC, SteamBox is not for you.”

So PC gamers wont buy Steambox, right?

 

“This is obvious; people who want to play games but don’t own / can’t afford a gaming-quality PC.”

You mean like a CONSOLE? this function is already serviced.

“They’re basically buying the same games for their Xbox that Valve sells on Steam.”

On their CONSOLE? Why would they leave behind the cheaper and easier experience? 

 

“If you do most of your computing on a smart phone / tablet / underpowered laptop, SteamBox MIGHT be for you.”

In which case IF they game at all, they probably already game on a CONSOLE. Or a phone.

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 8, 2013
11:12 pm
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The Piston is NOT a Steam Box.  A quick Google search can confirm this.

 

Your good, better, best prices are pure speculation.

 

I can speculate too, and I say the “good” price won’t exceed $500 and there’s a good chance it’ll be in the $300 to $400 range (the price of a laptop these days).

 

The SteamBox is basically a console.  Of course this function is already served.  Using that logic, why should Sony have ever made a console.  Why should the Japanese have made Toyotas when the function could have been served by simply importing Chevy’s?  

 

There’s always a reason why not to do something.  To do something takes a lot of courage and I admire Valve for this.  Are they just another console?  Yeah.  Will gamers without gaming PCs enjoy it (again there are millions of Xbox owners who fit this description)?  I think so.

 

If it’s cheap enough (I think the base model will be) then gamers will choose to SteamBox over the XBox because they prefer Steam’s UI / prices to Microsofts.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 9, 2013
12:00 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

No speculation…..

http://xi3.com/buy_now-piston.php

 

You have to dig deeper to get the story. Valve and xi3 had a VERY close relationship. They are also working closely with Nividia on a portable steambox.

 

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-34439…..gaming-pc/

……………………………………………………………………………

*Sony made a console because they had already invested millions in the Nintendo Playstation. It worked out for them due to Nintendo’s partnership coupled with their CD format, and they began to use the Playstation brand to push their entertainment tech and disrupt Microsoft.

*Microsoft made a console because Sony was threatening to disrupt the PC with their attempts to make a living room hub. they
lost BILLIONS OF DOLLARS and if not for Sony they would pull out tomorrow.

*Toyota expanded globally after domestic production tanked due to WW2. A deal with the U.S Military revived the company. Exporting was done by necessity, as the Japanese population post WW2 was not numerous or wealthy enough to absorb production.

 

The chief drive of business is necessity, not guts. Perhaps Valve feels threatened by the home consoles leaning toward Digital Distribution.

 

You need bravery to take the step, but without necessity there would be no need. Why change if everything stays good forever? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 9, 2013
12:15 am
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Plenty of businesses have been successful despite being unnecessary.  Guts is a huge part of business.  Did Mark Zuckerberg need to make Facebook?  There was already MySpace and Friendster.  He made a wholly unncessary product and took a lot of risks in building it; that’s called guts.

 

And you are speculating.  The Piston costs $1000, sure.  But it’s NOT a SteamBox.  Your link, with pricing, says nothing about it being a SteamBox.

 

And what makes you think this is the least expensive option?  What if it is the most expensive?  In the middle?  Again, pure speculation.

 

Here’s a link from Gabe Newll where he straight up says the Piston is NOT a Steam Box.

http://www.escapistmagazine.co…..-Steam-Box

 

Perhaps it is you who needs to dig deeper :)

 

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 9, 2013
1:00 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Figure 1:Xi3 Piston Order Page: http://xi3.com/buy_now-piston.php

$999.99

Primary Storage:

Hard Drive Standard- Internal 128GB SSD

8GB RAM
3.2Ghz Quad Core (R464)

 

Hard Drive

Internal Drives:


Figure 2: Escapist Story You Linked To: http://www.escapistmagazine.co…..-Steam-Box

 

“The big beard at Valve says the “Piston” PC unveiled yesterday is just one of several partner projects the company has on the go.”

“Piston is just one of several hardware projects being developed by various companies with Valve’s support, while Valve continues to work on its own hardware in-house.” (confirmation of Valves involvement)

“Newell talked about supporting the development of “good/better/best” tiers of hardware, ranging from low-cost streaming solutions to “whatever those guys want to manufacture,” even when they don’t necessarily jibe with what Valve thinks is best. “It’s been surprisingly difficult when we say to people, ‘Don’t put an optical media drive in there,’ and they put an optical media drive in there and you’re like, ‘That makes it hotter, that makes it more expensive, and it makes the box bigger.’ Go ahead,” he said.” (This confirms multiple “Steambox” Projects, all with unique configurations)

Valve, for its part, is focused on building a system “that’s quiet and focuses on high performance,” he continued. “We’ll come out with our own [system] and we’ll sell it to consumers by ourselves.” (High Performance is business-speak for expensive”)

—————————————————————————————————-

 As for guts being instrumental in business, I never said it wasn’t. But guts is preceded by necessity. Mark Zuckerberg was facing expulsion and outrage from his peers for hacking into restricted areas of the Harvard network to get photos for Facesmash. This sobering experience was the catalyst for his next project, which would give Harvard a VOLUNTARY photo directory of students as well as reverse the hit his reputation took with the students and administration.

Zuckerberg was unprepared for the rapid growth that came, and soon the servers ate up his entire savings. This led him to make a decision: Either shut down the site, or find funding for it. I think we know the rest.    

 

Guts was present, but without a situation that forces the gut-check you never step outside. Both are essential but one generally comes before the other.   

 

 

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 9, 2013
1:18 am
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Perhaps I should have been more clear.  You say Steam is going to work with several manufacturers; what makes you think the Piston at $1,000 is the cheapest option?

 

Look at the Xbox and Xbox 360.  They are basically low end PCs.  Why can’t Valve offer the same thing at a comparable price?

 

Also, Gabe is saying taht Valve will be putting out their own products.  This is contrary to what you have been saying earlier.

 

As for high performance being business speak for expensive, you are definitely taking Gabe out of context here.  He is going on and on about how manufacturers keep adding things that make the box more expensive.  Gabe says he wants to focus on performance and you take that to mean expensive?  LOL.  He is saying he wants to cut the fat and focus on things that will make games run well and lose the bells and whistles.

 

Guts is hugely important.  In the Zuckerburg example, there was ZERO necessity to build Facebook.  He wanted to and had the guts to go after it.  He had other options.

 

All sorts of companies are founded without necessity.

 

Look at Rovio.  What necessity were they fulfilling by putting out Angry Birds?  The answer; no necessity.  Yet they’re raking in the cash.

 

Plenty of businesses succeed by filling wants, not needs.  If there is no necessity then it takes guts to put yourself out there, because, as you said, you can always stick with the comfortable status quo (eg the Rovio guys could have all got jobs or something).

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 9, 2013
1:53 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ah, not to worry! clarity is tough in a text-based exchange, since a lot of language is in the body and expresions!

 

I see what you are saying. The answer is that as of right now, that is what we have, and from what Gabe says it sounds like the others are going to be similar. Hopefully Valve’s will be cheaper. It HAS to be to penetrate this market.

 

That said, Gabe is also stating Valve’s will be “high-performance”. We will have to wait and see….

Business is about seeing the future, something Gabe Newell has always excelled at. That is why I cannot see Valve doing this unless they feel they have a good reason to (ex)digital distribution systems by MS and SONY). They are not Microsoft. They do not have the resources to weather a hostile console market. 

————————————————————————————–

He went to Harvard, so of course he had options. In the context of his choice to continue Facebook, he could either seek funding, or he could shut the site down. If the site had never grown exponentially due to the DEMAND for a TRANSPARENT networking site (myspace did not do this), then Zuckerberg may have never been in the do-or-die situation that forced the business to grow or falter. As my mentor once told me: “Necessity is the fertilizer by which businesses grow.”

Perhaps it is more commonly said as “Necessity is the mother of invention.”

 

it is not just Business but History, and Warfare, Politics and Law. They are the mirrors to human nature, and if you study them closely you will see a pattern of cautious expansion driven by various needs and desires. The guts are a product of that necessity, be it a man who works to eat and have shelter, or the businessman who is forced to act to avoid Disruption from a competitor.

 

………..And here we are getting philosophical again.laugh

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 9, 2013
1:57 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Needs are not just on a scale of Millions and Billions. I Have a need not to work a desk job, to be the master of my own destiny.

If one desires this badly enough, does that not necessitate risk?

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 9, 2013
2:10 am
Avatar photo
RushDawg

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 811
Member Since:
February 12, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You are confusing wants and needs!

 

You need food, water, shelter, oxygen and that’s about it.

 

You WANT to be the master of your own destiny.  

 

To fulfill that want may require risk taking, but it’s still a want you are fulfilling.

 

You are correct, necessity forces change and innovation.  If your world is falling down around you, you have to take action even if you’re a complacent person.  But innovating and changing simply due to necessity is inherently reactionary.  It is most pronounced when you look at a societal level, where in general the majority of the people will roll with the status quo until that is no longer viable.  Big corporations are like this as well to an extent, since they have a lot of organizational inertia.

To me, Valve doesn’t fit this mould.  Valve is quite small and I imagine it has a fairly entrepreneurial culture.  To me, Valve introducing the Steam box feels like a bold, expansionary move, not a required move for their survival.  But really, what do I know?  I’m basing this “feeling” off of very little actual data.

 

Back to the philosophical stuff:

There are those amongst us who choose to go off the beaten path and innovate even though they don’t need to.  There is NO necessity forcing them to do so.  Again WANTING to be an entrepreneur does not mean you NEED to start your own business.  If there are other viable options for survival, then you are acting to fulfill a want, not a need.

Now playing: SNES - Phalanx, R-Type III, Genesis - Bio Hazard Battle, PS3 - Dragon's Crown

April 9, 2013
2:27 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Right.  These are all educated guesses. We cannot know what Gabe and Lombardi, and Valve are thinking since they do not have investors where they must outline their strategies to like Sony, Apple, MS, Nintendo, etc.

——————————————————————–

If we are speaking of survival,then yes, Wants are separate from needs. But Modern man has made Want and Need fluid and dependent on the society or individual. Ask the average person whether energy is a want or a need. Technically it is a want but try to imagine life without it.

 

An excellent point made in regards to business size! a company like Valve could move faster than an Apple or MS! Just look at how paralyzed MS is over the Orth debacle! Yet something about the way they are approaching Steambox with different manufacturers is telling me that they may smell potential disruption, and are acting to protect their platform  by expanding it to every possible avenue. Why not just make your own if console (with no forerunners) if you were just looking to penetrate Steam into console-space. 

 

Time will tell…….

 

 

What does everyone else think?????? DON’T LET RUSH AND I HAVE ALL THE FUN!!!!!!!

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

April 9, 2013
2:29 am
Avatar
Mongunzoo
Midwest, U.S.A

Site Contributor
Members

Site Contributor
Forum Posts: 816
Member Since:
March 14, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Going to bed. This has been engrossing to the point of exhaustion.

 

We should continue this tomorrow…..

 

Exploring the New World on Nintendo Switch. Currently Playing: Zelda BOTW, Octopath Traveler, Sonic Mania, Yoku's Island Express, Mega Man 11. Currently Watching: Marble Hornets, Luther, Black Mirror, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. Currently Reading: Influence by Robert Cialdini.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 812
Currently Online: srneqmlrxg, stefanroth, iGlobalizer, hollyrohan99, Ryan897, YanisHamache
Guest(s) 157
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
GhostSweeper: 909
Mongunzoo: 816
RushDawg: 811
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1
Members: 22285
Moderators: 0
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 12
Topics: 15214
Posts: 28306
Newest Members:
alfredoluc, betprince
Administrators: Masamune: 1574

Comments are closed.